tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8078379512095504946.post2481273617906109625..comments2024-03-26T06:17:49.527-07:00Comments on Had Enough Therapy?: The Case of Ellie CloughertyStuart Schneidermanhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/12784043736879991769noreply@blogger.comBlogger7125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8078379512095504946.post-28831852154228852712015-03-04T05:45:16.095-08:002015-03-04T05:45:16.095-08:00Thanks to Anon. 4:11-- I corrected one of the mist...Thanks to Anon. 4:11-- I corrected one of the mistakes he noted.Stuart Schneidermanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12784043736879991769noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8078379512095504946.post-81192561356710497572015-03-04T00:11:04.110-08:002015-03-04T00:11:04.110-08:00I read more into the original story and the neon s...I read more into the original story and the neon sign that kept hitting me was a lack of personal boundaries, so I wondered what this meant.<br /><br />I accidentally refound this video blog I had heard before:<br />https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hnKU-hL2Uag Personal Boundaries vs. Oneness (How to Develop Healthy Boundaries) Dec 14, 2013<br /><br />I thought her definition interesting: (@3:20)"Your boundaries are no different than your feelings."<br /><br />It would seem to contradict a mission of this blog, to devalue feelings, to not trust them, and certainly this story shows how a narrative can drive feelings, and assign external responsibility to something that deserves coresponsibility.<br /><br />She also says @8:15 Its hard for us to set boundaries because:<br />--------------<br />1. We put other peoples needs and wants first.<br />2. We don't know ourselves.<br />3. We feel as if we don't have rights.<br />4. We feel setting boundaries jeopardizes the relationship.<br />5. We never learn to have healthy boundaries.<br />--------------<br /><br />I'd imagine all of these apply to the woman in the story. At least when you admit there's a reason for not standing up for yourself, that's taking a tiny step towards responsibility.<br /><br />Later for an example on boundaries the video says: (@15:40) Write down a list of 10 things you're most unhappy about in your current reality. Are there any boundaries that I'm crossing in this experience?<br /><br />I tried this experiment on myself, and found the unfortunate situation that half of the items were related to dishonesty, my own rather than any awareness of anyone elses. Some of it can be altruistic, protecting others from things they can't help with, but some definitely affect others negatively.<br /><br />Anyway, perhaps if I'd talk to Ellie, I'd recommend dropping the legal suit as unhelpful and looking at her own sense of personal boundaries first.<br /><br />What's interesting is were I her I'm sure I'd feel great shame at exposing the intimacy of a failed relationship but strangely when she can conclude she was a victim, she's willing to be exposed, even if she looks naive, since she can beleive at least she's not manipulative and controlling like her abusive boyfriend.<br /><br />But if she was in touch with her "real feelings", rather than the ones constructed by narratives of "what you're supposed to feel now", I'm sure that public exposure would carry a much higher risk, but as well suddenly become irrelevant for the world to know, since it would be at best boring to admit she has work to do. <br /><br />There's no one to save, except herself, from her own ability to disown her own choices or refusal to choose and be responsible for what happens next.<br />Ares Olympushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09726811306826601686noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8078379512095504946.post-22854656348558147912015-03-03T20:28:11.733-08:002015-03-03T20:28:11.733-08:00She and her mom wanted a payday. When they didn...She and her mom wanted a payday. When they didn't get it, they decided to sue for it.<br /><br />What everyone fails to realize is that she was an adult when she entered into this relationship. People are making like she was a child. <br /><br />By the time my mother was her age now, she's already had two kids, both who would become college grads. What is happening to the women of the current generation?<br /><br />There has to be a precedent here. I'm thinking it has some similarities to the Robin Givens-Mike Tyson divorce story from back in the '80s.<br /><br />-- Days of Broken Arrows.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8078379512095504946.post-56251771726777586202015-03-03T16:11:05.063-08:002015-03-03T16:11:05.063-08:00Ellie did not "drop out". She managed to...Ellie did not "drop out". She managed to graduate from Stanford (completing her coursework online). She is currently a grad student and I do not believe it is correct to say she has "abandoned" career plans. I mainly hold the mother accountable. For pushing, pushing, pushing her fragile daughter into this relationship then crying "foul" when it didn't pan out.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8078379512095504946.post-90545666871951923752015-03-03T12:31:57.359-08:002015-03-03T12:31:57.359-08:00An amazing story, she's definitely here to tea...An amazing story, she's definitely here to teach us something, but not apparently what she thinks she's teaching.<br /><br />re: Saylor told Clougherty that she was a mere victim, that she did not exercise free will at any time in the course of the relationship. Might we not recognize that this is wildly judgmental, that it defames and slanders Lonsdale and that it tells Clougherty that she was a mere puppet, manipulated by a brutal male oppressor. <br /><br />re: Besides, if she was so easily manipulated by a male oppressor, how can we know whether she was also being manipulated by her therapist?<br /><br />As summarized above, Therapist Keith Saylor was certainly at fault, although without first-hand knowledge of actual events, actual process, its hard to know.<br /><br />It certainly shows the "power of the narrative" and that there are MANY sources of inspiration if you want fantasy abuser and manipulation, but if the purpose of therapy is to find a victim and abuser, therapy delivers.<br /><br />What's most interesting as well is the side-step, Clougherty is not bringing this to public for clear justice or her own needs for closure, but for other naive young women who might be saved.<br /><br />But what is she really trying to sell? Is she telling women they should be assertive, know who they are, and what they are willing to do and why, and how they can stop sexual advances they don't want? Or is she saying women can trust men, but as soon as these "predators" are identified, a godly woman can break out of the relationship before its too late?<br /><br />And if it takes years of therapy to "figure out" you were abused, does she really think she can help other women see the warning signs any faster?<br /><br />And if she could go back in time and talk to her former self, before she believed she was raped, could she tell this younger self how things were going to end up, and expect it would change her hope for the relationship? And if such a friend actually did exist, and tell her exactly that back then, who would be responsible if she ignored that advice?<br /><br />Where does "clear thinking" happen in this process?<br /><br />And more importantly, to the masculine reader, what lessons are there to be learned? How do WE avoid women who will "betray" after a relationship ends by reinterpreting herself as being abused while our side might as easily look like we were the one who was seduced.<br /><br />And there are answers given in his words: “Sometimes I feel it’s very clear you are eager to engage sexually, but other times you will talk about me taking advantage of you and forcing myself on you as if there is this dirty old man/young innocent student dynamic, and I should feel badly about it. We will do something and then just a bit later you’ll talk as if ‘how can I stop you from making me do that?’ and yet earlier I honestly thought you wanted to.”<br /><br />So that makes it crystal clear, she was giving mixed signals. She wanted "experience", but wanted no responsibility for that experience. She wanted him to want her, wanted him to act, and herself to be acted upon, and whenever that "good catholic" conscience arose, she switched sides, and pretended she had no responsibility for encouraging him.<br /><br />So men, take note. This isn't a matter of "yes means yes", but there's something important there. You need "written proof" when a woman is being two-sided. And when the "good catholic" girl comes out and denies her own participation, you need to read her back her own words, and make her admit THAT is her too. <br /><br />And if she can't rectify those two selves in her mind, and integrate them into personal responsibility, then she is TROUBLE, and she's better off screwing up another man's life than yours.<br /><br />I thinking of the Greek Sirens of the immature feminine. Keep sailing, and if you're a king, you can listen and observe, but make sure you're tied firmly to the mast, and follow the straight and narrow path out of danger.<br /><br />Ares Olympushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09726811306826601686noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8078379512095504946.post-23431849880525861272015-03-03T10:57:18.071-08:002015-03-03T10:57:18.071-08:00Is this what you get when you have poorly trained ...Is this what you get when you have poorly trained therapists, ideologues, and a (pre-Oedipal) social order that elevates infantilization?drtceline@gmail.comhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05068560803010332344noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8078379512095504946.post-80536416467256561792015-03-03T09:31:00.174-08:002015-03-03T09:31:00.174-08:00Sounds like remorse, but there's too much I do...Sounds like remorse, but there's too much I don't know. I lost interest about 2/3rds down.Sam L.https://www.blogger.com/profile/00996809377798862214noreply@blogger.com