Neither God nor nature. They must have an ulterior motive.
It's worth noting they do not demand tolerance, which they already enjoy; but, they demand normalization of an objectively deviant and unproductive behavior.
The individuals and cooperatives (and perhaps sovereigns) they represent and ally with are merely seeking to exploit an emotionally satisfying appeal in order to marginalize their competing interests. They do this with other real and manufactured condemnations of bigotry.
Anyway, the victim in all of this is either evolution or God's order. Neither will be capable of withstanding the scrutiny of individuals with dreams of instant gratification without consequence.
On the other hand, since not every society is following suit, and inviting evolutionary dysfunction, perhaps this campaign is targeted with a specific purpose. And it certainly does not end with normalizing homosexual behavior. Deviant heterosexual behavior (e.g. promiscuity, elective abortion) is arguably worse for society and humanity.
In the meantime, $15.7 trillion of recorded federal public debt and counting. Dreams of instant gratification through redistributive and retributive change have tangible consequences.
I think this whole issue is, in fact, Magic. Gays can not get married, because no one can get married. The Feminists flagship issues, Abortion and No-Fault divorce, have ended marriage and left us with a hollow, collapsing shell. The Feminists have always been good at tactics, and I think they have set the "gay community" up as the scapegoats of choice when the hollowness becomes official. While everyone looks at the Right hand, the Left hand is taking their chips off the table....
You're right. The social institution of marriage, engendered by a natural and productive relationship, has been under assault for much longer than just couplets pursuing normalization of their behavior. Unfortunately, the greater threat to our society and, if it spreads, to humanity, is the depraved behavior of many heterosexuals, when they embrace promiscuity, elective abortion of their children, etc. It's insane, but human consciousness is overriding a fundamental principal of the natural order, and evolutionary dysfunction will eventually take its toll.
Iloved that second-last paragraph. I'm firmly of the opinion that future generations will look back at the legalisation of homosexual marriage, and say to each other: 'What were they thinking?' - with a mixture of shame and bemusement.
I would suggest that a significant number of homosexuals are bisexual at the very least. I believe that is what counts for the idea that churches can change behavior with some success. What worries more is that people will fail to have children because of our slide to decadence and immorality. Islamists, and groups like them, will keep having more and more children and will have a growing influence on the governance of this country just as they are starting to in Europe. One only has to look at the elections in France to see a country that is quickly losing its culture. I often wonder whether this has happened to humanity before to the point where we came close to annihilating the human species.
This whole conversation and posts are like a discussion among a confederacy of dunces. For those who are gay, it is an innate part of who they are. And their relationships are deserving of the exact same dignity and respect under civil law as your own.
Equating the desire for it as a response to the AIDS epidemic or as a deliberate attempt to assault traditional marriage is utter nonsense. Since you’re all about tradition, maybe you should ask yourself why you wish to perpetrate traditional bigotry.
“N.N’s” laughable comment about “demanding normalization of an objectively deviant behavior” is rich. I guess ‘objectively deviant’ is in the eye of the beholder. I’m sure NN has done a great deal of empirical study to arrive at that conclusion beyond just pulling it straight out of her ass. And Dennis--your comment about churches “being able to change behavior with some success” is devoid of something I can’t seem to put my finger on…oh yeah, the truth. “Reparative therapy” is an oxymoron --since nothing gets repaired other than the coffers of those that offer it. It ends up destroying that person’s human spirit since that individual is innately gay and the disconnect can’t ever be bridged. It’s frankly rather cruel to assert that the gay or lesbian person needs repairing. The therapy should be reserved for those who advocate the “repair” in the first place to explore why they would treat their fellow human beings in that fashion.
It was traditional to outlaw interracial marriage in certain states until 1967--in fact, I believe our current President’s parents would be guilty of a felony if they choose to be married in Virginia at the time of the President’s birth. Today we would find such a position to be abhorrent.
Just like gay people find abhorrent your stunning lack of human grace to acknowledge the full worth of their relationships under civil law.
Whether gay folks choose to have children by adoption or surrogacy or they don’t have children at all--it has no bearing on whether straight couples get married or not or have children of their own or not. Your position only has the impact of stigmatizing a minority in the population who are deserving of equal respect under civil law for the person they love and whose demands are rooted squarely in the same. This traditional bigotry and stigmatization is what has led to a great deal of personal destruction; not their being gay. Isn’t it wonderful we finally have arrived to the point where we have a group of leading national figures who acknowledge this basic precept. A point that should be celebrated; not chided or demeaned or used as a foil to float you’re collective theorems based on nothing but your own prejudice.
I appreciate Barry's taking the time to express an alternative point of view.
One needs to recognize that until very recently, same-sex marriage has not existed. Perhaps that means that throughout human history everyone has been bigoted against gays, but that is a rather large claim.
As of now the debate has descended into name-calling and defamation. If the movement toward same-sex marriage is about gaining respect, however do you think that anyone is going to be respected when he or she is disparaged and defamed?
Obviously, the movement for same-sex marriage started somewhere for some reason.
You may not like my explanation, and I would be happy to hear another one.
It makes sense to me that marriage has always been what it has always been because it makes a certain amount of rational sense that the kind of coupling that produces future members of the community and the species should receive some kind of special treatment.
To say that marriage has always been as it is because it wants to systematically disrespect gays makes no sense... especially when there is a very clear reason why it should have been so.
Marriage has always been a mating ritual... it makes sense that a mating ritual should be limited to those who might mate.
For my part I do not believe that people who are born gay should or can be "cured."
As well as I understand it, most gays are born gay; therefore that is a normal orientation for them. Yet, it is worth recognizing that some people who engage in sexual activities with members of their sex are not gay. They might be confused and some form of therapy might help them to deal with the confusion.
Not really exploring the entirety of human history--even I wouldn’t attempt to be as grandiose as that (although I appreciate your attempt to do so). Let’s be generous--since we are Americans--I think it’s safe to say since the founding of the country those who are gay have been under the thumb of systemic bigotry. From involuntary committal to mental institutions, overt discrimination in the workplace and in government or frankly anywhere in civil life--to denying them the dignity of serving opening in the military, the country has been and continues to be quite destructive of a minority of its citizens. Perhaps you should explore the life and workings of Frank Kameny to get a picture of what the journey for the last ½ century to our even having this discussion and consideration of marriage at all has been like ( see http://www.nytimes.com/2011/10/13/us/franklin-kameny-gay-rights-pioneer-dies-at-86.html)
As you say you understand it, most gays are born gay and it is a normal orientation for them. I believe that has also been the American Psychiatric Association position since 1973. The question then is better asked--if this is an innate part of the human condition, why wouldn’t you allow “coupling” (as you call it) for gay people--and that to deny it is lacks a certain amount of rational sense.
Since when was the movement toward same sex marriage about gaining “respect”?...I believe it’s about similarly situated people being treated dissimilarly under law. And the name calling and defamation (as you call it) flows from the indignity of having to ask 3rd parties to recognize or sign off on our lives or to explore reasons why we should live or “go without” rather than celebrating who we are.
Gay and lesbian folks should have the right to be married under civil law--period. Their right to do as such is not itself a commentary against straight folks from continuing to marry for the reasons you cite.
perhaps...since some like looking at all of 'human history' to justify a position for to deny people full equality some reason--- the link might give one the perspective to see that marriage apparently hasn't been fixed for all of 'human history'..but one that evolves. http://anthropologist.livejournal.com/1314574.html
When I talk about human history I am thinking of the analysis offered by Claude Levi-Strauss in The Elementary Structures of Kinship.
If people decide that they want to invent an institution, they do have a right to do so. I did not say that it had to be banned; I said that was a legal fiction. As such it provides certain rights and privileges-- something that everyone accepts-- but I seriously doubt that it will ever be considered to be the same thing as marriage.
If gay relationships are dissimilar to heterosexual marriage passing a law will not make them similar or equivalent.
People who believe that legal action will make them the same are setting themselves up for disappointment.
I think that’s where we differ--I’m ONLY interested in this issue as a legal matter--under our Federal constitution’s 14th amendment equal protection clause, the full faith and credit clause and American legal precedent as it has slowly been whittled into its current state.
If the country ultimately allows same gender marriage as a matter of federal law--it won’t be a legal fiction…it’ll be a legal fact. Not 'inventing' an institution or granting certain rights and privileges…but being part of an institution already in place called marriage where not certain rights and privileges flow--all attendant rights and privileges flow as a matter of law. While you’re certainly entitled to your opinion about the union being dissimilar to straight couples or the beneficiaries of it setting themselves up for disappointment, but that opinion has no bearing as a legal matter.
Thank you for the clarification. As you can tell, I am not very much interested in the legalities of the question. I am looking at it from quite a different angle, and, as I said, I have no objection to decreeing same-sex marriage as a means to afford same-sex couples the rights and privileges that inhere in marriage.
Most states seem not to want the idea to become law, but that, too, is another issue.
When I speak of legal fictions, I am thinking of the idea that, under the law, corporations are treated as though they were persons. Mitt Romney's confusion about the question notwithstanding it's a legal fiction-- no one thinks that corporations are people, but for the purposes of the law we are willing to treat them as though they were.
"One can only wonder what Sullivan means when he suggests that gays are 'mostly' born into heterosexual families."
ReplyDeletePerhaps he is referring to the practice, which I first heard of in the 70's, of gay men donating sperm to turkey-baster-wielding lesbians.
This comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeleteNeither God nor nature. They must have an ulterior motive.
ReplyDeleteIt's worth noting they do not demand tolerance, which they already enjoy; but, they demand normalization of an objectively deviant and unproductive behavior.
The individuals and cooperatives (and perhaps sovereigns) they represent and ally with are merely seeking to exploit an emotionally satisfying appeal in order to marginalize their competing interests. They do this with other real and manufactured condemnations of bigotry.
Anyway, the victim in all of this is either evolution or God's order. Neither will be capable of withstanding the scrutiny of individuals with dreams of instant gratification without consequence.
On the other hand, since not every society is following suit, and inviting evolutionary dysfunction, perhaps this campaign is targeted with a specific purpose. And it certainly does not end with normalizing homosexual behavior. Deviant heterosexual behavior (e.g. promiscuity, elective abortion) is arguably worse for society and humanity.
In the meantime, $15.7 trillion of recorded federal public debt and counting. Dreams of instant gratification through redistributive and retributive change have tangible consequences.
I think this whole issue is, in fact, Magic. Gays can not get married, because no one can get married. The Feminists flagship issues, Abortion and No-Fault divorce, have ended marriage and left us with a hollow, collapsing shell. The Feminists have always been good at tactics, and I think they have set the "gay community" up as the scapegoats of choice when the hollowness becomes official. While everyone looks at the Right hand, the Left hand is taking their chips off the table....
ReplyDeleteRobert Mitchell Jr.:
ReplyDeleteYou're right. The social institution of marriage, engendered by a natural and productive relationship, has been under assault for much longer than just couplets pursuing normalization of their behavior. Unfortunately, the greater threat to our society and, if it spreads, to humanity, is the depraved behavior of many heterosexuals, when they embrace promiscuity, elective abortion of their children, etc. It's insane, but human consciousness is overriding a fundamental principal of the natural order, and evolutionary dysfunction will eventually take its toll.
Iloved that second-last paragraph. I'm firmly of the opinion that future generations will look back at the legalisation of homosexual marriage, and say to each other: 'What were they thinking?' - with a mixture of shame and bemusement.
ReplyDeleteI would suggest that a significant number of homosexuals are bisexual at the very least. I believe that is what counts for the idea that churches can change behavior with some success.
ReplyDeleteWhat worries more is that people will fail to have children because of our slide to decadence and immorality. Islamists, and groups like them, will keep having more and more children and will have a growing influence on the governance of this country just as they are starting to in Europe. One only has to look at the elections in France to see a country that is quickly losing its culture.
I often wonder whether this has happened to humanity before to the point where we came close to annihilating the human species.
This whole conversation and posts are like a discussion among a confederacy of dunces. For those who are gay, it is an innate part of who they are. And their relationships are deserving of the exact same dignity and respect under civil law as your own.
ReplyDeleteEquating the desire for it as a response to the AIDS epidemic or as a deliberate attempt to assault traditional marriage is utter nonsense. Since you’re all about tradition, maybe you should ask yourself why you wish to perpetrate traditional bigotry.
“N.N’s” laughable comment about “demanding normalization of an objectively deviant behavior” is rich. I guess ‘objectively deviant’ is in the eye of the beholder. I’m sure NN has done a great deal of empirical study to arrive at that conclusion beyond just pulling it straight out of her ass. And Dennis--your comment about churches “being able to change behavior with some success” is devoid of something I can’t seem to put my finger on…oh yeah, the truth. “Reparative therapy” is an oxymoron --since nothing gets repaired other than the coffers of those that offer it. It ends up destroying that person’s human spirit since that individual is innately gay and the disconnect can’t ever be bridged. It’s frankly rather cruel to assert that the gay or lesbian person needs repairing. The therapy should be reserved for those who advocate the “repair” in the first place to explore why they would treat their fellow human beings in that fashion.
It was traditional to outlaw interracial marriage in certain states until 1967--in fact, I believe our current President’s parents would be guilty of a felony if they choose to be married in Virginia at the time of the President’s birth. Today we would find such a position to be abhorrent.
Just like gay people find abhorrent your stunning lack of human grace to acknowledge the full worth of their relationships under civil law.
Whether gay folks choose to have children by adoption or surrogacy or they don’t have children at all--it has no bearing on whether straight couples get married or not or have children of their own or not. Your position only has the impact of stigmatizing a minority in the population who are deserving of equal respect under civil law for the person they love and whose demands are rooted squarely in the same. This traditional bigotry and stigmatization is what has led to a great deal of personal destruction; not their being gay. Isn’t it wonderful we finally have arrived to the point where we have a group of leading national figures who acknowledge this basic precept. A point that should be celebrated; not chided or demeaned or used as a foil to float you’re collective theorems based on nothing but your own prejudice.
I appreciate Barry's taking the time to express an alternative point of view.
ReplyDeleteOne needs to recognize that until very recently, same-sex marriage has not existed. Perhaps that means that throughout human history everyone has been bigoted against gays, but that is a rather large claim.
As of now the debate has descended into name-calling and defamation. If the movement toward same-sex marriage is about gaining respect, however do you think that anyone is going to be respected when he or she is disparaged and defamed?
Obviously, the movement for same-sex marriage started somewhere for some reason.
You may not like my explanation, and I would be happy to hear another one.
It makes sense to me that marriage has always been what it has always been because it makes a certain amount of rational sense that the kind of coupling that produces future members of the community and the species should receive some kind of special treatment.
To say that marriage has always been as it is because it wants to systematically disrespect gays makes no sense... especially when there is a very clear reason why it should have been so.
Marriage has always been a mating ritual... it makes sense that a mating ritual should be limited to those who might mate.
For my part I do not believe that people who are born gay should or can be "cured."
As well as I understand it, most gays are born gay; therefore that is a normal orientation for them. Yet, it is worth recognizing that some people who engage in sexual activities with members of their sex are not gay. They might be confused and some form of therapy might help them to deal with the confusion.
Not really exploring the entirety of human history--even I wouldn’t attempt to be as grandiose as that (although I appreciate your attempt to do so). Let’s be generous--since we are Americans--I think it’s safe to say since the founding of the country those who are gay have been under the thumb of systemic bigotry. From involuntary committal to mental institutions, overt discrimination in the workplace and in government or frankly anywhere in civil life--to denying them the dignity of serving opening in the military, the country has been and continues to be quite destructive of a minority of its citizens. Perhaps you should explore the life and workings of Frank Kameny to get a picture of what the journey for the last ½ century to our even having this discussion and consideration of marriage at all has been like ( see http://www.nytimes.com/2011/10/13/us/franklin-kameny-gay-rights-pioneer-dies-at-86.html)
ReplyDeleteAs you say you understand it, most gays are born gay and it is a normal orientation for them. I believe that has also been the American Psychiatric Association position since 1973. The question then is better asked--if this is an innate part of the human condition, why wouldn’t you allow “coupling” (as you call it) for gay people--and that to deny it is lacks a certain amount of rational sense.
Since when was the movement toward same sex marriage about gaining “respect”?...I believe it’s about similarly situated people being treated dissimilarly under law. And the name calling and defamation (as you call it) flows from the indignity of having to ask 3rd parties to recognize or sign off on our lives or to explore reasons why we should live or “go without” rather than celebrating who we are.
Gay and lesbian folks should have the right to be married under civil law--period. Their right to do as such is not itself a commentary against straight folks from continuing to marry for the reasons you cite.
perhaps...since some like looking at all of 'human history' to justify a position for to deny people full equality some reason---
ReplyDeletethe link might give one the perspective to see that marriage apparently hasn't been fixed for all of 'human history'..but one that evolves.
http://anthropologist.livejournal.com/1314574.html
When I talk about human history I am thinking of the analysis offered by Claude Levi-Strauss in The Elementary Structures of Kinship.
ReplyDeleteIf people decide that they want to invent an institution, they do have a right to do so. I did not say that it had to be banned; I said that was a legal fiction. As such it provides certain rights and privileges-- something that everyone accepts-- but I seriously doubt that it will ever be considered to be the same thing as marriage.
If gay relationships are dissimilar to heterosexual marriage passing a law will not make them similar or equivalent.
People who believe that legal action will make them the same are setting themselves up for disappointment.
I think that’s where we differ--I’m ONLY interested in this issue as a legal matter--under our Federal constitution’s 14th amendment equal protection clause, the full faith and credit clause and American legal precedent as it has slowly been whittled into its current state.
ReplyDeleteIf the country ultimately allows same gender marriage as a matter of federal law--it won’t be a legal fiction…it’ll be a legal fact. Not 'inventing' an institution or granting certain rights and privileges…but being part of an institution already in place called marriage where not certain rights and privileges flow--all attendant rights and privileges flow as a matter of law. While you’re certainly entitled to your opinion about the union being dissimilar to straight couples or the beneficiaries of it setting themselves up for disappointment, but that opinion has no bearing as a legal matter.
Thank you for the clarification. As you can tell, I am not very much interested in the legalities of the question. I am looking at it from quite a different angle, and, as I said, I have no objection to decreeing same-sex marriage as a means to afford same-sex couples the rights and privileges that inhere in marriage.
ReplyDeleteMost states seem not to want the idea to become law, but that, too, is another issue.
When I speak of legal fictions, I am thinking of the idea that, under the law, corporations are treated as though they were persons. Mitt Romney's confusion about the question notwithstanding it's a legal fiction-- no one thinks that corporations are people, but for the purposes of the law we are willing to treat them as though they were.